Issue 676: Harmonizing CRMbase logically with CRMgeo

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Working Group: 

Post by Martin Doerr (25 Feb 2024)

Dear All,
In the course of updating CRMgeo to CRM 7.2.4, there is a logical problem to solve with P168, 169, 170, which define Declarative spaces and times, but CRMbase does not have these classes.

Nevertheless, these 3 properties are designed in CRMbase not to be used for phenomenal spaces and times. Therefore I here propose to formulate this as FOL rules in CRMbase, so that no formal inconsistency will occur when using CRMgeo proper to declare the 3 properties to be restricted to instances of SP6 Declarative Place, SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume, SP10 Declarative Time-Span, or via subproperties of P168,P169,P170.



P168(x,y) ⇒ E53(x)

P168(x,y) ⇒ E94(y)

P168(x,y) ⇒ P1i(x,y)


P168(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z) [E92(z) ⋀ P161(z,x) ⋀ (P169 (u,z) ]   Excluding the place to be a projection of a physical thing

P168(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z) [E4(z) ⋀ P161(z,x)]    Excluding the place to be a projection of an instance of E4 Period



P169(x,y) ⇒ E95(x)

P169(x,y) ⇒ E92(y)

P169(x,y) ⇒ P1i(x,y)

P169(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z)[E18(z) ⋀ P196(y,z)] Excluding STV to be defined by a physical thing

P169(x,y) ⇒ ¬ E4(y) Excluding the STV to be an instance of E4 Period



P170(x,y) ⇒ E61(x)

P170(x,y) ⇒ E52(y)

P170(x, y) ⇒ P81i(x, y) ∧ P82i(x, y)

P170(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z)[E2(z) ⋀ P4(z,y)] Excluding an instance of Temporal Entity to happen at this Time-Span



Post by Martin Doerr (25 Feb 2024)

Dear All,

From the CRMgeo side, we have two choices:

Either we declare

Q10 defines place

Domain: E94 Space Primitive
Range: SP6 Declarative Place  

to be suproperty of P168i,

Q14 defines time

Domain: SP14 Time Expression Now: E61_Time_Primitive
Range: SP10 Declarative Time-Span

to be suproperty of P170,

Q16 defines spacetime volume

Domain: SP12 Spacetime Volume Expression Now: E95_Spacetime_Primitive
Range: SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume

to be suproperty of P169,


P168(x,y) ⇒ SP6(x)   (SP6_Declarative _Place)
P169(x,y) ⇒ SP7(y)
⇒ SP10(y)

All the best,


Current Proposal: 

In the 58th CIDOC CRM & 51st FRBR/LRMoo SIG Meeting, the SIG reviewed and approved the proposal by MD to impose restrictions on CRMbase concerning the use of P168 place is identified by, P169 defines spacetime volume, P170 defines time -namely to disallow them to be used for interpreting instances of E53 Place, E92 Spacetime Volume, and E52 Timespan as phenomenal, respectively. Using these properties with the restrictions proposed, allows for a declarative interpretation, without having to define declarative places/timespans/spacetime volumes in CRMbase and also maintains compatible semantics with CRMgeo. 

A summary of the decisions affecting CRMbase can be found below. For the details see here

  • The SIG voted in favor of MD’s proposal (add the FOL axioms for P168, P169 & P170 and redraft the scope notes accordingly). 
  • MD & GH prefer to not deprecate Q10, Q14, Q16 from CRMgeo. They will be kept in. 

Paris, March 2024

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